Sadly, one of the most ubiquitous things in the evangelical church today seems to be an attitude of irreverence toward biblical and spiritual things. Jokes about prayer, being saved, and ironically even the Holy Spirit are prevalent virtually everywhere.
What role do Christians play in confronting these things inside, and outside of the church? How do we react to irreverence in our own hearts?
With the re-release of the Monty Python movie "Life of Brian", the regulars came together to ask, and attempt, to answer the questions above in this week's episode.
----------------------------------------------------------
Questions, comments, or feedback? We'd love to hear what you think! Send them to provokeandinspire@steiger.org, or send us a message on Instagram.
Join the Provoke & Inspire Community!
Click below to follow the regulars on Instagram!
Sadly, one of the most ubiquitous things in the evangelical church today seems to be an attitude of irreverence toward biblical and spiritual things. Jokes about prayer, being saved, and ironically even the Holy Spirit are prevalent virtually everywhere.
What role do Christians play in confronting these things inside, and outside of the church? How do we react to irreverence in our own hearts?
With the re-release of the Monty Python movie "Life of Brian", the regulars came together to ask, and attempt, to answer the questions above in this week's episode.
----------------------------------------------------------
Questions, comments, or feedback? We'd love to hear what you think! Send them to provokeandinspire@steiger.org, or send us a message on Instagram.
Join the Provoke & Inspire Community!
Click below to follow the regulars on Instagram!
Were we able to extract from any man a complete answer to the question what comes in your mind when you think about God, we might predict with certainty the spiritual future of that man. I think we underestimate the significance of simply our view of God, what we think of when we think of God, and I think that begins in revelation and it's maintained and cultivated in the spiritual disciplines. You're listening to the provoke and inspire podcast.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the provoke and inspire podcast learning how to follow Jesus in a post Christian culture. My name is Ben Pierce, I'm the host of the show and I got everybody with me. I got Phil Craig, landry, dylan boots, gerald, I got David Chad and Luke was up. Ellis.
Speaker 3:Yo, what's up podcast brothers.
Speaker 1:Hey, chad, I want you to pick a new name. Three, two, one go.
Speaker 3:Misha that was that was so laggy, it was ridiculous I Didn't know what you're gonna ask.
Speaker 4:I wasn't prepared.
Speaker 1:It caught me off guard. As Luke knows, one of my right use skills in life is being able to speak before thinking, so I would have been right there with something for all of us.
Speaker 4:All right, ben, give us a name, go carry.
Speaker 1:There was a show in there. I'm pretty sure I said sugary.
Speaker 3:I would call you Gaza. I'd be like all right, Gaza, Come on Gaza.
Speaker 1:Aaron and I always laugh about how in New Zealand you know because it borrows from UK culture Right, they were so determined to give Aaron and as a, as a yeah kind of name, one point they call them as a.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, just stupid. No, I said much.
Speaker 1:That was the soccer team, the Waikonai soccer club shout out to the WCS WSC anyway. Brogan inspire is an official Stiger international podcast. Stiger is a worldwide missions organization that mobilizes followers of Jesus to reach young people Would not walk into a church. For more information, resources and how to get involved, go to stigerorg David. How do you spell that?
Speaker 5:s t e I g e r dot.
Speaker 1:O R G Boom. All right, that's that. If you can't spell that, you'll probably Google it and get a tractor. Scroll past the tractor, jump onto the missions website.
Speaker 5:Yes, before we get into the serious stuff here, nigel finally got released from house arrest and he is now looking for people to join him on Facebook. Nigel clown that C L O W Any. He started an investment company, so All right set list for today.
Speaker 1:We have David's random story.
Speaker 3:It didn't get a great response this time, nigel Did he?
Speaker 4:what do you want me to do?
Speaker 3:I think it's been a long time. We should be celebrating that Nigel's right. Gradually coming back into action.
Speaker 5:I know he was incarcerated. He started a whole like hip-hop band no all right set list for today.
Speaker 1:We have David's random story, a short foray into the weird world of. David's daily adventures. Yeah we have Stiger stories where we're gonna be talking about the amazing things that God did through. No longer music in Argentina Truly could take an entire hour to talk about it. It was extraordinary, david, and I'll hit you with some facts and figures from that. Do we have punching through the awkward Chad? What do we got?
Speaker 4:We're good, we're good.
Speaker 1:So we're gonna do that. And then, finally, the main topic Monty Python, cancel culture and the importance of reverence in and outside the church. It's gonna be quite the episode. You're gonna want to stick around till the bitter end because Chad's gonna do a impromptu poem to fade us out Yep, into the night.
Speaker 3:It's gonna be amazing. That's why we started off talking about the British names we give people, and also cockney. Yes, it will in in honor of Monty Python speaking of honor.
Speaker 1:We had a review last Thursday, so depending on when you listen to, this that will totally make no sense.
Speaker 1:But very recently the name, the handle, is s dot pal. 8 to 0. The title of the review is my favorite podcast by far clear, gospel-centered messages and discussions, five stars. And it reads I first started listening to this podcast five years ago when a fellow Christian co-worker in a secular workplace Recommended it to me. My co-worker didn't realize this, but it was a very difficult time for me in my marriage. Every morning I would commute to work, put on an episode of the podcast. I really appreciate the consistent gospel-centered nature of the conversations and the variation of relevant topics.
Speaker 1:So, as Powell 820, sincerely, we're grateful that you wrote that and we're even more grateful that God worked through this to, yeah, have a positive influence in your life for the, the gospel, to really encourage you, especially in a difficult time. So we thank you and in fact, we salute you. Thank you for that review and if you are a regular listener of this podcast, consider leaving us a review and we will read it. We will prove that not only can we read, but that people are also listening. That would be great. So check that out. Leave us a review. If you're on Spotify, hit five stars. Then go over to Apple podcast and leave us a written review. So alright, david, you good, you ready.
Speaker 5:We'll see. So you know, one of the things that's very important to me is to support the local church.
Speaker 1:This is how we started last week. It's a series. It's a series. He's doing a series about the local church.
Speaker 3:It's a series, and so so I was traveling with the pastor, local church.
Speaker 5:Season one, episode two were black pants with no pockets on the back and then, like a white dress shirt. He dressed well on purpose because of what he would do is he'd go on the plane and, very confidently, just go sit in the business class seat. Usually he would get away with it, he would just go right into business class. And so I was with him and he thought, hey, we got to do this. I'm telling you it works every time. So I went with him and Immediately we were kicked out.
Speaker 5:The men but, then another time I was traveling with with the guy in our band. He wore like tire pants with kind of a jasmine highlight.
Speaker 4:What is this? And dress to impress. Get on with the meat of the story.
Speaker 5:I am because so.
Speaker 4:Delicate white sequence or no cuz.
Speaker 5:So he wasn't dressed like the pasta. You know what I'm saying? Go to check in and Again, the guy who's checking is in. He looked at Nigel with his pants made out of tires and he immediately put us both into business class because he thought we were a couple and he wanted, he wanted to she was what he wanted to show that he, he was with us or something supportive supportive.
Speaker 1:So words, you're looking for supportive.
Speaker 5:I guess what I'm trying to say? If you want to get into business class, don't dress like the pastor. You know what I mean. That's not gonna work. Dress like Nigel.
Speaker 1:You know how atheists will say religion is something you believe when you're a child. But then you become more sophisticated and you realize all the things that you were told don't make sense. That's kind of like what I heard growing up from my dad, for example. That story Makes no sense because I've been told that story. He literally would tell Aaron and I all the time growing up about this businessman that would just walk into business class.
Speaker 1:Right but that's not how business class works. They have like a very strict Manifesto with, like your specific name, no it's does work, it does, it does.
Speaker 5:It's like the atheist saying I don't believe your story is no more, so you're the atheist this lack of trust in this context, I would but you know about Nigel Houghton, right and and how you know, yeah, this is a different story about what the guy assumed about you too.
Speaker 1:That has nothing to do.
Speaker 3:Sneaking into business class. I just didn't quite follow how that is Supportive to the local church on sequitur. I always feel like there's a really important, deep meaning to every random story. So I'm always searching for it yeah well keep searching.
Speaker 5:Well, it's, it's, you can jacuzzo those empty seas, all you want well, especially if you Just trying to get it to shea. That was good.
Speaker 1:Yes, see, that's what happens when you talk without thinking All right, let's move on, let's do this.
Speaker 5:That was a great random story, it was. This is a stiker news flash.
Speaker 1:Tell it again.
Speaker 3:This is supposed to be my segment, but I was stolen today. It was, and so I will sit in the backseat.
Speaker 1:David and I about I don't know what three weeks ago got off a tour of Argentina and it was I mean, I've probably done I don't know 50, 60 tours, I don't know how many countries, lots of lots of tours, amazing shows all these years. And I don't know, david, I don't know where it would fit in your top 10 rankings. I mean there's different things that contribute to that, like uniqueness and crazy, wild events and other things, but I would say, just in a pure Crazy, amazing crowds, fruitful response, overwhelming moves of God's power, night after night. This, this to me was up there. I mean probably top 10 God just moving so powerfully. Over 7,000 people, over 20,000 people at the shows, 500 plus people responding.
Speaker 1:So many stories, too many stories to really even tell David, how about you just give one or two of the most impactful parts of the Argentina tour? But to make this practical, not just that you're at now, your family's vacation slide show, kind of as a segue in terms of the power of the gospel to reach, every day, normal people, because I really think that's what's on people's hearts so much right now as they, they have sons and daughters, they have grandkids. People listening right now have people in mind who I think are truly represented in the kinds of people that were coming to Jesus every single night at our shows. And to me it's not just wow, what did God do over there? That's amazing. It's Further reinforced in my heart that there is no one that God can't reach and that the people that they have in mind right now, god wants to reach them and he uses us when we're willing.
Speaker 5:Christmas is a special time for a lot of people, but for me it's not because I live in it. I don't know if that makes any sense.
Speaker 1:You have probably spent more time in a coffin as a living person Than anyone in human history.
Speaker 5:Like you, honestly, might have some sort of Guinness book of records, but then you know, sometimes you have voices in your head or I do, at least saying is this true when I'm believing, is it really true? And I guess, if anything that Argentina showed me is how true it is, what I believe, because it was so supernatural, what happened? I mean, the responses were just night after night, people talking about how they had this encounter with this, this, this with God, with with you. Know, they just felt like they were like love that they never knew was real and it just made me so aware of the power in the message of the cross. I talked about this, I think, in the last podcast, where it's important when we talk about Jesus, not just to share how Jesus loves us, but he also is the answer to the sin.
Speaker 5:I asked someone in Argentina. They said you need to talk about the darkness that people have inside of them. And so I really did. I really preached very straight, because we would do interviews with people before the shows and they'd say I'm not into this, I don't believe in God, and then they would just be. My life has changed. I've experienced something I never thought I could ever experience. At the end I'd say okay, if you want to know God if you want to be free from this darkness. Who wants this? And like pretty much everyone, would raise their hand. And this is not a church audience. This is 99.9% of the audience out. There are completely outside of the church.
Speaker 1:What's awesome about it is that, of course, we've gotten to great lengths to present the gospel in a way that is clear and relevant and makes sense to people. We do everything to make the show as captivating and relevant and entertaining. We're in places where secular people truly are and we do all this. We try so hard to do that and yet at the same time, it's so evident and so obvious that it's the Holy Spirit doing the work, and I love hearing a genuinely non-Christian person describe the work of the Holy Spirit, because it's always kind of different, right? Someone will say oh, it's like a piece that I've never experienced before. I remember talking to a girl in Poland who said I came here I had this balloon filled with all the shame and I felt like during the show, it's like someone started to slowly deflate that balloon. I talked to a guy in Argentina who said I've hated myself my whole life and he said it wasn't until this show that I think I've actually experienced real love. We had a guy saying my whole life will change after this show. We had a young guy who came to the first show, loved it so much, came to the second show, loved it so much, ended up coming to four shows and the night before we left he ended up being baptized in the bathtub of the housing where the band was staying. We need to do everything we can to be relevant, to communicate well, but I know many of you probably feel like I don't know what to do. I don't know what to say, and what I will tell you is that, for all of our efforts to do that and I do think it matters when you're just willing to lift up the cross outside of the church, the Holy Spirit works and it's amazing, you don't sit there and go. Well, I mean, that's obvious. Of course that worked. Look at our amazing show. It's so clear in that moment that that's just a gift, that the Holy Spirit used those five loaves and two fish, that simple offering to him, to do something profound in the life of someone who came.
Speaker 1:And so it was just amazing, guys and I was watching our recap video from Argentina that's not quite out yet, I just shared it with some supporters for the first time and what was really interesting is there's a guy, the guy who was baptized in the bathtub, and at the beginning of his interview he says you know, I came here expecting to see a pop punk show, but what I found was overwhelming. And he said it will change my whole life. And what's interesting is that I've heard that same sentence from people, but it ended very differently. You know, I came expecting to see a pop punk show and then you forced this religious stuff on me. You know, that sentence was essentially the sentence that caused the whole Brazil fiasco, right, the whole Brazil viral stories.
Speaker 1:I thought I was going to get this and you forced this thing on me and watching him say that, I had this thought and I felt like it was the Holy Spirit and the thought was it was all worth it, like it was all worth it, like to go to these places where people are not expecting to hear Jesus and to clearly show them who Jesus is. I'm willing to accept all of the consequences of people that are not going to receive that and who are going to reject us and mock us and criticize us, because for a guy like that, I'm so grateful that the Holy Spirit is what he left with, not with some dumb show and pop punk music.
Speaker 1:So I don't know that was a lot of ramblings, but I was just like, I just felt like God said. I saw how hard that was to feel that criticism because of that exact thing, and I'm just showing you why you need to continue to do what you're doing, wow.
Speaker 3:It's amazing. And it's interesting because sometimes people think of South America and they think like oh yeah, you know, people are very spiritually open there and they respond, but Argentina is not like that. Is it Like Argentina, as a South American country, is quite, quite secular and quite what's the word I'm looking for? Skeptical. The youth culture, yeah, the youth culture in Argentina can be really skeptical. So like to hear you guys sharing that in Argentina is really if you understand Argentina, it really is something incredible.
Speaker 5:They are very proud to be from Argentina and not open to a lot. And we were told to expect that, and we saw the exact opposite.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I feel like we've done a lot of baptisms in Bards in Stiger as well. That seems to happen often.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I mean even the maybe funny connection aside, I think what that speaks to is the unprogrammatic, unritualistic side of that. But I love that. I love that it's like front lines, it's in the battle. You don't always have time to do it in this kind of way, in this kind of setting. Sometimes you just gotta. You know, and you see that in the Bible too, where it's just like oh, there's river over there, let's go do it. Yeah, no, that's a funny connection. I never really realized that. But all right, moving on, quick question Are there any Monty Python fans in?
Speaker 4:the house. Luke, I don't know what I should say. No, that's good. What should I?
Speaker 1:say no, I'm glad you said that was the perfect response.
Speaker 5:Okay, there's this one Monty Python movie there is these like chickens dropping bombs on people. Yeah, you know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1:I don't, but I do remember as a kid at being on sometimes.
Speaker 5:It was just totally bizarre.
Speaker 1:It was always bizarre and I remember as a kid I literally have vivid memories of doing this. I guess you'd be watching it. Maybe someone was over that was into it, or maybe you're just denying the fact that you used to be I watched.
Speaker 5:Monty.
Speaker 1:Python with you. It was on because I remember having memories as like a young kid going oh this is some cool like war movie, right, because of nights and stuff. And then I would like kind of stop, kind of like I think about the way my seven year old will look when I'm watching football. He just kind of goes what? Yeah, and then he just leaves and that's how I remember.
Speaker 4:What the?
Speaker 1:heck is this? But anyway, to the delight of nerds and weirdos everywhere, monty Python and the Holy Grail Recently celebrated what was it there? 43rd and a quarter Anniversary, which seems I kind of like that. That's kind of funny. Was it 43 and a quarter? It was something like that and there's probably some reason for it.
Speaker 1:I don't know if I've offended you. I'm sorry, but related to that, one of the key videographers on my team and Hickey. He came to me and he said Ben, there is a movie that they released called life of Brian. Now, I knew nothing about life of Brian, but apparently it caused quite the stir. Life of Brian tells the story of Brian Cohen, a young Jewish Roman man born on the same day and next door to Jesus and Subsequently mistaken for the Messiah. So apparently it's this very kind of slapsticky, irreverent, risk, risky kind of movie that kind of mocks that time period and, you know, plays on a lot of the biblical imagery and, as I said, it caused a lot of controversy. In fact, right before they were gonna start filming, the original investors bailed. Some British Lord, I guess, was behind it and he was like oh yeah, I didn't have a chance to read the script, this is blasphemy. So he pulls the plug and then, of all people, george Harrison from the Beatles rescues it. He puts four million dollars of his own money, like why? But apparently he did.
Speaker 1:As soon as it was released it was besieged by all sorts of religious fundamentalists. Orthodox rabbis, apparently, were in the front lines. You know they were the first ones to come in, kind of like the Irish in that penultimate Braveheart scene. They sent in the rabbis and you know they objected to it. And then of course you have Christians in LA Picketing the the US release. There was the.
Speaker 5:Irish send in the rabbis. What are you talking about?
Speaker 1:No, no, no, I said the rabbis were the front line, kind of like the Irish in that penultimate Braveheart scene, remember.
Speaker 5:He's like oh, okay, okay, Okay you know I'm talking about the imagery just mixed together in our heads.
Speaker 3:You know we're all very confused cost money.
Speaker 5:The Irish I free I thought you was talking about Irish rabbis.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that sounds like a bad bar joke. Yeah, uh, anyway, the movie gets banned in a bunch of states, that gets banned in a bunch of countries, including Norway. You're like what? That doesn't seem like it fits with my stereotype of what Norway tolerates and then eventually, by the 80s, everyone gets over it just to be clear, this is the 70s right.
Speaker 3:So just to be clear, it's the Norway of the 70s, that's true.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, sorry. This came out in the 70s and then by the 80s everyone just moved on and it was on TV all the time and we all had a good laugh, you know, and articles were written kind of about it since this anniversary and Obviously this was way before my time and beyond that. Like I already said, I wasn't a huge Monty Python fan to begin with, but there was a quote that Enhiki brought to my attention that just really sparked something in my mind and this was. The quote is from Terry Gilliam I'm assuming Gilliam, not Gilliam and he wrote this we would say nothing negative about a Muslim because we'd get a fatwa after us which is, I think, like a death hit, kind of like the.
Speaker 1:Was that one author that recently got attacked, solomon Rushdie? Yeah, rough, rough, but your Jews, your Christians, very easy to push around. So that was his quote. The question I had, especially in light of Christmas, especially in light of the whole cancel culture world that we live in, what I wanted to bring up for discussion and I'm not gonna guide the conversation because I got criticized for over regulating the conversation- you got lambastin.
Speaker 1:There was a severe lambasting. I'm still ready from the lambasting. The question is what do we make of reverence? What do we make of cancel culture? How should we respond when God is mocked, which obviously we don't like? There's the Muslim response, pretty intense, there's in Terry Gilliam's mind. There's the Christian response, which is no response. What, what do we do? How do we approach this whole topic? Chad, the floor is yours.
Speaker 4:Well, gents and lovely listeners, I think that it this is actually a really serious topic because it happens, I would guess, way more often than we're even aware of. Like I was trying, just since I knew we were, we were going to be talking about this. I'm a little more aware and I've I've had several kind of things come up that were irreverent light moments and and I just like I wasn't trying to interject anything other than just my, my attitude, my, my posture and my behavior as those things came up. Because it's it's one thing to kind of have the money Python experience of a piece of media or something in culture that that happens, that is clearly antagonistic or or just, you know, downright wrong and vile against Christianity and against the goodness of Jesus, but in my case it's just like what, what? How do I, how do I respond to those little moments? So one was just yesterday and a text thread I was a part of and the response from someone who I don't know but was in this thread, related to work, it was like, well, thank you, baby Jesus, that that worked, you know, and and it was kind of, you know, it's like I didn't.
Speaker 4:My choice was like say something or say nothing. And I chose say nothing because it's like I would guess that all of us actually face some level of irreverence to faith In our daily lives, and so I think the starting point for me is just like being cognitively aware of when that's happening. And then how do I respond? And and just you know, I think, what, what I did do, even though I didn't necessarily call this person out like I can't believe, you said baby Jesus. You know, praise, baby Jesus. What I, what I did do, is just pray. You know, like man, god, this is an area that I I've got to grow and I think there's a whole bunch of us that could really benefit from Understanding your holiness.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's kind of funny because actually, like you know, although Terrigalium was saying the Christians are, push over, they did have a lot of backlash, as you said. And then I remember Very specifically, there's one interview I found funny. I can't remember when I saw it, obviously it was long after the time, but there was a priest I guess an Anglican priest being interviewed with them and it was such a funny picture because the priest was so visibly Like, just really annoyed with these guys and with this film, really angry about it, and they and they were very like, just like. But the film's not about Jesus, it's about Brian. It's very clear. His name's Brian, you know, and it's just trying to, you know, defend themselves. And this priest is super angry and I was just like, oh yeah, it's hard to get that right. It is hard to know how do you, how do you respond? And to be compared, in that case, with this quote, to whether do you respond them the the way some Muslims might, or is there a different way.
Speaker 3:I think it's an important question I want, I guess, one thought I had was I was trying to think about Jesus. You know, what would Jesus do? And there are different examples of the way Jesus responded to persecution, or you know, it's hard to define what it is exactly, but different ways he'd respond to opposition. So you know some there's that. There's a time he says turn the other cheek right in the sermon of the mount. So you know you're. You're in a situation Christians are being attacked, or Jesus being Marked, or whatever. Turn the other cheek. And then there's another situation where he's Going into the temple and turning over the tables and because of it, says there, because of his zeal For God, right for for and and for the temple, and so I don't know. I guess there are different ways and we have to have some wisdom in knowing how to react to different things.
Speaker 1:I like how you brought it down to the every day level chat because, as I keep saying, montipython is not my greatest source of inspiration or reverse inspiration. But, like you said, we can become very desensitized to the Sort of ubiquitous irreverence that's all around us, the kinds of language we use, the way we speak about God, and I really trying to reflect on why that is. You know, there's, there's two different sides to this. There's, of course, how the secular world talks and treats God, which, to some degree, why would they be reverent, right, you know? Why would they not mock something that they don't believe in, especially something that's kind of institutional and oppressive and sem levels, you know, like policing morality and it's it's right for the picking in that sense, and I'm not entirely Surprised by that. And so how should I react?
Speaker 1:And I was trying to bring this down to a relatable level and I was thinking about what if it was my wife or my kids or one of you guys or someone I really loved, and you guys were being publicly mocked, not in a not in a lighthearted way or like the way we mock each other, but really your character was being attacked or you're being criticized in some way and I I'm a pretty loyal guy, like I will fight for people and you hear someone use that chat and you know, not assuming some hugely malicious intent on their part, but like again reducing it or Bringing it to a to that kind of analogy. If my wife was being treated that way or someone was speaking ill of her, like not, a lot of things will make me lose myself control, like someone attacking somebody I love and I'll I'll respond, probably in the wrong way if I'm not careful. But it does say something about how I feel about that person and what I'm willing to do To defend them when the world says something about them I believe is disrespectful or untrue. So I mean, I don't know, what do you think, david?
Speaker 1:Does that beg the question if I feel so passionate about defending my wife in public if she was to be criticized? But I can just sort of Laugh off or tolerate what is a pretty common irreverence outside of the church. Let's start there. Does that say something about my relationship with God or is that just a faulty analogy?
Speaker 5:Just for the record. I think that life of Brian is blasphemous. I don't think it's just innocuously irreverent.
Speaker 1:Who said that?
Speaker 5:No, I know and said that that's just what I think about life of Brian, because it has Brian on the cross being crucified and they're seeing always look on the bright side of life and that kind of thing.
Speaker 3:So to me it's.
Speaker 5:Maybe the Anglican priest didn't do a very good job, but I think that the way I respond to someone who is irreverent or blasphemous is by having my own understanding of who Jesus is. I mean having my own reverence. I can't tell someone to be reverent of Jesus. I need to be reverent of Jesus and I think the reason the church is so powerless the Big C church because the church is not reverent. I don't know.
Speaker 5:I've been to so many churches where we'll be in the green room or whatever. Getting ready for the meeting and prayer is treated kind of like semi-serious and people will even be making jokes about Scripture. No wonder we're not seeing the Holy Spirit moving when we have that kind of cavalier understanding of God. And I think when I am really intensely aware of who Jesus is, people are going to feel that and it's going to make them think about it. I mean I have a real extreme example of that when back in the day when we played in this, it was a male strip club in Sao Paulo, brazil. The guy who ran the club his name was Boy and he was this guy who wore army fatigues and he was like 45 years old and he was this really scary individual and he had this male strip club and we were there presenting Jesus.
Speaker 5:It's a long story but I didn't comment on what he was doing or the kinds of things he was presenting at all. But he would come up to me and he would just start crying and he'd say I feel this purity coming from your body. That's how he would explain it. I feel this. He didn't have words for it, but it would make him just break down and cry and I think he could sense the holiness not that I'm holy, it's the Holy Spirit that was in me in that place and he couldn't take it and it made him consider Jesus and I ended up praying with him. But the point is, the answer is not for us to defend Jesus like a Muslim would I think. The answer is for us to have a reverence for God ourselves and to have a revelation of who Jesus is.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I agree with that, Because I think that would have been a very interesting different, I think it would have had a very different reaction if, for instance, the priest I remember from that interview had, instead of kind of visibly being angry that these secular guys who don't care about the church or about God in any way, there's this kind of expectation that they should behave correctly. They're supposed to behave religiously, and I think that's where often mockery and blasphemy comes from, because it's like.
Speaker 3:I don't want to do what you tell me to do, kind of attitude. It's like, why do I have to do what you say? That's the attitude of our culture often, and so if we come at people expecting them to act like believers, like followers of Jesus, when they don't even know who he is, then we'll often get those reactions they don't care. But I think if the priest had maybe shown some of what you're describing David like this, you know, I could imagine if he had just said something like hey, you know, it's just hard for me to watch what you guys made because Jesus is like so important to me, he's pure, he changed the world, and it's just hard for me to watch it because I don't think you really get who he is.
Speaker 3:And to say something just, honest and authentic, that probably would have had an incredibly different reaction.
Speaker 1:Way better, absolutely, and I think that's probably.
Speaker 3:That's probably a good way for us to react today, in the right situation, to kind of just express our reverence. Like you're saying, Dave, like you know, I just want you to understand what it means to me Right.
Speaker 1:And how are they? You know, how are they to understand the holiness of a God they've never met Right? And to them it's really just looked like institutional religion or, you know, moralization detached from relationship. And so I agree with you.
Speaker 1:If I was in that chair, I think what I would try to say is I would try to explain to them who God is to me, what Jesus has done in my life. I would say, you know, I get that you guys don't believe in him the way I do or haven't encountered him the way I have, but you know I was dead, you know I was, I was without hope and without purpose, and you know I didn't think my life had any value. And I, I was rescued by someone who didn't just talk about love but proved it. You know who wasn't a celebrity, he wasn't rich, you know, he was among the people, he served, he cared, you know, and he didn't just talk about that love, he proved it, like I said, and I think I would explain what God has done in my life and I would say if, if someone gave their life to set you free, if you had a debt that was beyond your ability to repay, or if you're, you know, someone literally sacrificed their life so you could live.
Speaker 1:And then you, you heard people making fun of them. How would that make you feel, you know? How would that cause you to react? You know, and I would hope to take that approach make the argument for the reality of Jesus, not argue from the reality of Jesus, if that makes sense. Because even with my you know family analogy, my, my fierce desire to defend my wife comes from an intimacy I have with her first right. If it's just this detached religious thing, then people can feel that. But if it's truly motivated by a sacrificial love, I think that's felt differently by people Like this is a real, this is an object of beautiful love. Like they're going to respect that passion in a different way than it comes from just a cold religious heart.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and you know, and even to say, hey, I understand why you, why you can find all this parody in the church. Yeah, agreed, there's a lot of things worthy of mocking. You know, he could say, as an Anglican priest, there's a lot of crazy stuff we do. Let me tell you, Jesus is not anything like that. He's not. He wasn't just some religious guy. I mean, he actually is a logo. So I would explain how it was God himself who came to the earth and I would talk from my own perspective. When it's authentic, when it's real, then it's not just words that people hear, but they feel it.
Speaker 5:You know, they feel the they feel the Holy Spirit, they feel the power of those words and I've been in situations and I know all of you guys have, I mean, you know, playing with a lot of different crazy guys and music, that is not like tic-tac-toe or no, but I mean okay, but I just get this image of you playing like tag with some just wild tattoos or whatever, and they're just really playing.
Speaker 5:I don't say anything to them about how the what they say, or their language or anything. I just I am who I am, and then they'll start apologizing to me, you know. So I'm sorry. I said that not because I said anything to them, not that because I acted offended or anything.
Speaker 1:I feel like I'm at least coming from a perspective of God. I see you as powerful and holy. I submit my life to you. I want to have a high and ever expanding view of who you are. But I think a lot of the lack of reverence in the church, because there's two sides, right, there's the irreverence outside of church and how we deal with that, and I think we've covered that, but there's really, as Chad brought up, there's pretty pervasive lack of reverence inside of the church. So is that a different conversation, right? Is that more of a direct among brothers and sisters kind of conversation, or is it still what you're saying? That has got to begin with me and people just got to kind of see it? I don't know.
Speaker 3:That's probably closer to the Jesus turning the tables over in the temple. You know, that's probably closer to that context because, because I was trying to think that one through before, I was thinking like, okay, what's some biblical examples? Or like I said, you know what would Jesus do? And I was trying to think like, okay, why did Jesus at one point say turn your other cheek? And then in another moment he's going into the temple and turning the tables? And one of the key differences there, I think, is exactly that Like he does react differently to different people and contexts and different sin, in a way, like he'll show grace and mercy like to a prostitute or to a tax collector, and then he'll challenge front on a religious person who is proud and thinks they're right, and so he'll deal with them differently. And so with the temple, it's like I think there's something about it that really angered him, that they were playing with God and with worship and confusing people Like they were representing God, and I think that's what made Jesus so angry.
Speaker 5:They were selling the gospel. They were commercializing the gospel. That's what he was upset about, that they were making it into a market. It was supposed to be making sacrifices and then poor people, they would have a pigeon or something because they couldn't afford to have a sheep, a lamb or whatever.
Speaker 3:And they were using it to make profit.
Speaker 5:And he's saying you can't make my temple into a den of robbers.
Speaker 1:But again at the heart of it, they lost sight of who God really is If you commoditize worship in that way, which I think you could argue we've done today.
Speaker 1:Right, I think you would argue that there's a lot of the church world that's become a commodity. I often talk to worship musicians and artists who, again, they literally talk about worship music like a avenue for commercial success. Like how am I going to write the next big worship hit? And it seems so detached from its original purpose. So I agree, but again, just yelling at people is not going to solve it, right? How do I get through to my brother without just being, like you, idiot, like I can't believe you talk like that, because I think, chad, you were right, we're going to solve anything by calling the dude out in that context. So what do?
Speaker 3:you do. But just to make clear, the connection I was trying to make is that I think that is irreverence in the church, inside the church, when we commercialize the gospel or worship and true, that's what they were doing there, but it showed a low view of God. Or if they'd forgotten what all of that was really about, if they felt like they could treat it like that, if they thought they could make money off of it. And so to my point again. There's something I'm not recommending that we go around smashing everything as a literal interpretation of what Jesus did, but there's something about the fact that Jesus would react differently in different contexts. That I'm trying to learn from here is like okay, so probably I do need to challenge in the church context with my brothers and sisters in a different way to the way I would respond to a non-believer is the point I'm making now. So I think we probably do need to.
Speaker 3:We do need to say something, we do need to challenge it and find the right way to challenge it. In a way, I think what Jesus was doing was some kind of demonstration. It was like showing, hey, this is not right, and so we've got to come up with the modern-day version of that.
Speaker 1:Have you had more time to reflect on that situation, chad, and what you maybe would do or still will do, or just any thoughts in general?
Speaker 4:No, not necessarily, because again, it's like not some, I don't have a relationship with this person. It's like an accountant for a company that someone else on our team deals with. So I just happened to be in this one thread, but it just kind of served as an example of a maybe like a mild Illustrated.
Speaker 4:Yeah a mild but modern illustration, but I do think to Luke's point that it does seem like Jesus historically only called out, and with such force that even going into the temple and just upturning the tables and all that driving everyone out was there was such force against the religious group representing God and the kingdom of God, but then there's such tenderness and such compassion to everyone outside of that. So I guess if it was someone that I knew, then the default reaction if they were not a believer, would be compassion and what we've talked about. Maybe I'd have an opportunity to explain why God's name in vain or making light of Jesus or whatever the situation is versus those in the church which resonates a lot.
Speaker 5:Ben has done that with me. If I'll make a, I don't I'm really sensitive to that, but just kind of like you'll find in church settings where people kind of make jokes about scripture. Do you know what I mean by that? It's like they'll go into a room and turn on a light and they'll say let there be light. You know what I mean, that kind of thing, and so it sounds like what's the big deal, but it's not harmless.
Speaker 5:So I'm really hyper to that and I'll talk to people in our mission because I think that if I see that happening, where they make kind of a joke about the Holy Spirit or something, I'll go come on, we don't do that. We don't make jokes about scripture or about the Holy Spirit or we need to have reverence, because when people would have an encounter with Jesus, they were flat on their faces. You know, it's like when that scripture where they went up to the mountaintop with the disciples and I think it was Moses and Elijah and Jesus speaking with each other, remember that, and then let's make a monument for Moses, elijah and Jesus. And then a cloud came over them and they fell flat on their faces and said this is my son Listen to him, right? It was that kind of response. It was not hey, jesus is cool, I'm cool. It was not like that, and I think that's what makes the gospel so amazing is that Jesus is so holy and yet he wants to relationship with me. But if I slip into that, you've challenged me, ben, remember.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one, and that's a culture I feel like you've fostered and I feel it and I have a, if I'm honest, I have like a repugnant response to that, and it can be so righteous sometimes if I'm not careful. And it needs to be done in the context of relationship. Again, I think the key distinction here and we can kind of try to land the plane slowly here but there is a distinction between in and outside the church, right, and it's largely because, or it's exclusively because, those inside of the church are supposed to share our assumptions that God is holy, that we should have respect, that we are aware of what he has done for us and that should produce unending reverence, unending awe, unending worship. And so I think we can have different kinds of conversations inside of the church. I think, you know, we need to be like brothers sharpening each other, and iron sharpens iron. We need to be doing all that inside of the church. But I would still say the starting point is the same, which is, if you're listening to this, I think it needs to begin in your own heart. You need to be someone who genuinely goes before God and says do I have a high view of you? I think it starts by actually taking it seriously.
Speaker 1:A W Tozer is one of my favorite writers and this is a quote I use all the time. He says were we able to extract from any man a complete answer to the question what comes into your mind when you think about God? We might predict with certainty the spiritual future of that man? I think we underestimate the significance of simply our view of God, what we think of when we think of God, and I think that begins in revelation and it's maintained and cultivated in the spiritual disciplines. Right, I think we've got to have that revelation, and I don't even think it's a one time thing. But I think of Isaiah six you know what an amazing, epic verse where Isaiah sees the seraphim and they can't even look at the face of God and it ruins him, right, isaiah six, verse five woe to me.
Speaker 1:I cried. I am ruined, for I am a man of unclean lips and I live among a people of unclean, unclean lips and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty. He has this revelation of the holiness of God. It gives him a accurate sense of who he is, and then, of course, he gets sent out from there.
Speaker 1:And so I think we need to begin with us, we need to acknowledge its importance, we need to ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to us a fresh who he is, and then we need to continue to go back to that, because I think the proclivity of the human heart is to drift away from reverent to familiar, from holy to just common, and I think it's something that our brothers call us out or sisters call us out. But our own commitment to the spiritual disciplines, our reading of the Word, our engaging and seeking God, these things maintain the fires of a high view of God that I agree with Tozer are absolutely crucial and indicative of our spiritual future. And so I still think it starts with us. And then I think, like a member of a family, we should have a healthy place for calling it out when we slip, when we've maybe drifted, because I know I've needed that as well.
Speaker 3:I was just thinking about how, because I think it's a really important point, important point you're making, and we've also made throughout this conversation, which is that the source of reverence is that real relationship, that authentic relationship with God. And I was just thinking about how. Also a really important part of that, and maybe one that relates more to the idea of reverence, is worship, and you say this often, david. Sometimes modern day Christianity kind of has this thing where we have to make God. You know, as we talk about Jesus being a friend and you know Jesus said we could call him a friend, but we've taken that to another extreme, where we're like you know how do you say David Like we make Jesus our buddy, like he's, you know, like we're irreverent in the sense that we treat God lightly.
Speaker 3:And I think one thing that sometimes lacks maybe in our relationship with God is real worship. Like we think of worship just as a style of music and you just, you know, sing along to songs in church or in a meeting or whatever. But real worship is that it's speaking out, it's turning my mind to and speaking out that high view of God you're describing, ben, and I feel like you need to cultivate that we need to cultivate that in our relationship with God as well. It's not something we always do, if we think about it like. We have this prayer time we do on Zoom each morning with some of the guys here in Europe, and we made these rules about it, like you know, to encourage us.
Speaker 3:Like you know, everybody has to pray at least once out loud, and one of the rules is you start with worship, you start by worshiping God, and it's because you don't naturally go to that Like when you're in a prayer meeting you start praying. You tend to go to you might thank God for something, then you go to asking, but for me, worship is different to just thanking God for stuff. It's exalting him. You know, it's a word that's kind of a biblical word. We don't use it normally, but it's like it's to lift him up, it's to say truths about him. That's mostly to remind myself, but it is what I'm made to do. It's to recognize who he truly is, and so I feel like that's that's. Maybe a really important piece of this authentic relationship is that I cultivate true worship, that in my heart, in my words, in my prayers, that I'm truly lifting him up and just describing who he really is and reminding myself, and that I think generates more reverence as well in us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's cultivated, as I said, in the spiritual disciplines. Right, I think, in the absence of consistent rhythms, of placing yourself in that place to discover who God is in his word and to cultivate that high view of God in prayer, I think we just drift away. As I said, and I think one of the most profound ways to gain reverence is by asking the Holy Spirit to open up your eyes to the reality of grace. Right, when I think about the idea that God loves me despite the grim reality of my sinfulness, that produces an awe, like the prostitute, you know, at the feet of Jesus. It produces this sense of what can I say, what can I do, what can I offer. I'm pretty sure I just quoted a worship song without meaning to, but you know what I mean, though, right, I think that's one of the most profound sources of reverence is a revelation of God's grace in light of my sinfulness. When I truly understand that, I think it just strips away this cavalier, self-assured pride that says I can joke about the God of the universe, like no, really. I don't think just focusing on his power necessarily does that as much as his grace. Paradoxically, right, it's his grace that melts my pride more than reflecting on the nuclear power that God could unleash on me if you so chose to. So I don't know. That's one of the things I wrote down. Hopefully that's helpful. All right, we love you.
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